Caring for the cow after a difficult calving || Soins de la vache après un vêlage difficile

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00:00:53: Thank Today we're going to talk about assisted calvings or difficult calving as well and what things should be considered from the perspective of the Heiferer cow post-caving.

00:01:06: So, the calf is on the ground... What do we need to be concerned with?

00:01:10: With the cow just.

00:01:11: I want to recap a little bit.

00:01:12: i've got Dr Jen Pearson here today again.

00:01:15: She was on our first podcast in this series where we talked about dystocia or difficult calvings.

00:01:21: Talked a number of things, kind how common are they?

00:01:25: What are the common reasons for them?

00:01:26: what thing can do to prevent and prepare for calving And help out when assisting those cows with calving?

00:01:37: I will tell you Jen i always enjoyed calving season.

00:01:40: that's probably one And I will admit it's a selfish reason that there was instant gratification.

00:01:48: Yes, It is a condition where...I say this little tongue-in-cheek..it s simple solution There only one solution The calf needs to come out of the cow.

00:01:57: Get the

00:01:57: calf out exactly Right?

00:01:59: the

00:02:02: process.

00:02:03: Yes, that could be challenging

00:02:05: but it was something where once you got that calf out like I said instant gratification.

00:02:09: when i think of some of the other disease conditions we deal with you know disease investigations or a chronic illness that we're trying to manage... You don't get the same gratification that you do at the calving.

00:02:20: No!

00:02:21: It's it's like lancine and abscess.. Instant gratification, instant relief

00:02:25: Right?

00:02:25: Yeah perfect example.

00:02:27: So, um so Jen welcome to the podcast here today.

00:02:31: Thank you!

00:02:31: So Jen Pearson she is at Oregon State University right now.

00:02:36: many of you may remember her if she was out uh the vet school in Calgary for a long period time.

00:02:41: Jen and welcome back

00:02:42: thank you.

00:02:43: let's talk about the cow or-or the heifer.

00:02:46: yeah after we get that calf out what are some of the things that we want to consider?

00:02:51: What do we need to worry about with the cow specifically.

00:02:57: Well,

00:02:57: and you're absolutely right when you talk about the instant gratification is yes we get the calf out but then we are not quite done because there's some things that can continue to happen this cow or heifer that might make her longevity in the herd shorter than what we would like.

00:03:14: so from the dairy side of things We know that cows experience dystocias or difficult cabins.

00:03:19: often times it leads an increased risk of a retained placenta.

00:03:26: that can also lead to an increased risk of metritis or a uterine infection.

00:03:30: We know these cows tend overall throughout their entire lactation and then because of these early on traumatic events or uterine infections that can occur post-cabin, or post-difficult cabin.

00:03:49: These cows tend to have quite a bit reduced fertility increase in number of services, if you're thinking about it from the dairy perspective.

00:04:03: Lower conception rates potentially even an increased risk of those early embryonic deaths so losing those fetuses or embryos within the first forty-five to sixty days after being bred.

00:04:14: and all these fertility issues can potentially lead getting rid of a cow or have her early because these negative production traits that might lead be caused by difficult calving.

00:04:31: From the beef side things, you know milk production isn't as of a driver But definitely the retained placenas and uterine infections, any other sort of trauma that might have been experienced to birth canal can decrease fertility.

00:04:47: We know in beef industry we've got pretty tight timelines for getting cow pregnant again right?

00:04:53: She needs a calf.

00:04:54: Roughly about forty to sixty days later, she's turned out with a bowl.

00:04:59: She has got three estrus cycles to get pregnant.

00:05:02: if we're using the sixty-three day breeding cycle and If she isn't in good health or have a good uterine health Or has trauma for her birth canal it is unlikely that she will be getting pregnant which means at fall preg check We are going to find her open And she'll leave the herd because she won't be pregnant.

00:05:18: So lots of consequences can happen after these cows After difficult calving

00:05:24: not just the health or welfare side of things for the animal, but at the end

00:05:43: first lactation or whatever lactation she was in when she had this dystocia.

00:05:47: She's not going to be as productive there, both from getting her pregnant so she might have again later on...she is not meeting that nice thirteen month calving interval.

00:05:58: we are trying to meet with our dairy cattle and then the decrease of production at milk standpoint can cost producers quite a bit On the beef side.

00:06:12: But again, we know those heifers both on the dairy and beef side are not making the producers very much money.

00:06:17: It's going to take a couple of lactations or cavians usually on the beef side of things We say about four to five calves before she actually starts to pay for herself And can start to make the producer money.

00:06:27: from the dairy side Of things we actually say About The third lactation depending On milk prices Before She also has paid For Herself and Can Start To Make That Producer Money.

00:06:36: So if Those Heifers experience A dystocia and Are unable to get bread back Or Not Producing they're not gonna meet those milestones where the producer can make a profit.

00:06:45: Right, so yeah we need to keep them in the herd long enough for them to start being on... In the black?

00:06:50: Not in red right exactly?

00:06:52: Yeah On both sides Both dairy and beef industry it's all about longevity.

00:06:56: These animals are leaving their herd early And that is when there will be losing profits.

00:07:01: So We'll start off I guess with general question What do we do about minimizing risk of assisted calving on that longevity in the herd.

00:07:10: Yeah,

00:07:11: and so there's actually a lot of... We talked a little bit about risk factors.

00:07:20: back even from that and think about the calving environment these cows or heifers are calving in, whether it be on dairy industry of things.

00:07:30: If we're thinking about the dairy industry.

00:07:31: they probably have a maternity pen okay?

00:07:34: In there might be an abetted pack where some producers isolate animals at different times to allow them to calf but overcrowded maternity pens.

00:07:50: So even if we have a calving pen area on our beef side of things, If you have too many animals in there that leads to an increased risk of dystocia as well potentially some other metabolic issues.

00:08:02: And what this does is cows need a nice quiet clean area to go and calf so they can't find or segregate themselves away from the herd lead to a dystocia.

00:08:20: Other things, you know if there's feed trucks going by or mixing wagons are lots of people going buy.

00:08:27: it is just really busy area.

00:08:29: cows can get distracted.

00:08:30: that can prolong the birth and also lead this dystoci.

00:08:33: on beef side thing we think about.

00:08:35: our calving pens want have areas where cows can find nice clean dry area t go in cab.

00:08:41: so might mean certain times of year need roll out straw bedded packs allow them clean dry and have multiple of these areas, not just one area.

00:08:52: So if a cow wants to go in isolate herself because all the other cows are sleeping on the nice form

00:08:56: pack

00:08:57: she has that ability to go an isolate yourself and calve in a quiet

00:09:01: area.".

00:09:01: I mean you know...you think of calving?

00:09:03: And i mean there's a lot of changes going on-I mean..a big transition period.

00:09:07: lots of other stresses is going on that we can't necessarily control.

00:09:11: but if we can control some improve the positive outcomes even if we are doing an assisted calving, even there is a dystocia.

00:09:20: Exactly and you can think of that from a couple standpoints.

00:09:23: so one is thinking about this space.

00:09:25: We used to say about hundred square feet per cow for thinking about a bedded pack was good enough.

00:09:31: but theres actually some really interesting work done by Katie Progford out at University of Guelph.

00:09:35: she's finding probably need double that space in order allow these calves.

00:09:42: And she's actually finding that cows have these prolonged births, whether they're assisted or not like we talked about in the first section.

00:09:50: So they might have a calf on their own and not be assisted but they may be prolonged.

00:09:55: That is leading to an increase of inflammation and haptaglobin is one of those proteins which can measure that as indicator for inflammation hyperketonemia or hypochalcemia, milk fever.

00:10:13: So how the experiences for that cow during the calving process actually also has an effect on some of these other metabolic diseases we worry about in our transition period as well?

00:10:25: Right and a lot times things look very simplistically because it's easy to talk about but again there is this background all at the same time that each one has an effect on the other.

00:10:43: So always something to kind of keep in mind

00:10:46: and also thinking about you know, the calving space at least from the beef side of things.

00:10:50: And if we're talking about heifers it's their first-time calving.

00:10:53: so there are a lot unknowns for these animals.

00:10:55: We oftentimes run into situations where they might even be in the process But they see another calf on the ground, and they might get confused.

00:11:05: And think that calf is theirs because the density of animals in area it's just too high.

00:11:10: So again... That can slow down her calving process.

00:11:13: She may later have some mis-mothering issues which we'll talk about a little bit later Which leads to a lot management problems or at least more labor for producers who are having manage these animals.

00:11:24: Right We talked last episode the three stages of calving.

00:11:28: The first stage where, you know they're starting to bring that calf up into the birth canal and then the second stage where there's active contractions and pushing out that calf And now the calf is on the ground.

00:11:41: so now we are at Stage Three.

00:11:43: Yes Calf Is Out.

00:11:45: What's Happening Now?

00:11:46: what do We Need To Assess or what Are We Looking For In The Immediate Term?

00:11:49: Dr.

00:11:50: Claire Wendier is going to talk in the next episode about The Calf because that's a very, there are sort of two animals we need to look at individually right?

00:11:56: There's the calf and resuscitating the calf so that'll be in podcast number three That We Discussed There.

00:12:02: And then the other thing Is looking At The Cow Because We Can't Forget About Her.

00:12:05: Sometimes We Do Forget My Sort Of Fun Saying.

00:12:08: I Like To Say To Students & Producers You Have To Check for spares and tears.

00:12:13: And it's a fun way to say it, but spare is meaning make sure there's not a twin or potentially a triplet.

00:12:19: I have delivered triplets before... Right!

00:12:21: ...and you don't want to miss one of those.

00:12:24: You know what?

00:12:24: I've had producers shocked.

00:12:26: they deliver And they are shocked that there is another also big calf inside the cow.

00:12:33: So rule number one, check for spares and tears.

00:12:36: make sure it's not a twin you forgot about.

00:12:38: The tears part.

00:12:40: we're feeling any major trauma to that birth canal.

00:12:43: so Is there any excessive bleeding or divots within the birth canal that might indicate trauma?

00:12:50: Because, That might signal this animal may need to go on additional pain medication.

00:12:56: Or antibiotics and other treatments To help make sure she doesn't get sick from increased trauma.

00:13:02: Right you talk about the producer coming in and being surprised there's that second calf, it happens.

00:13:07: And yeah you never want to be the veterinarian who does a calving.

00:13:10: then they get home

00:13:16: It dies in a stinky days later and then that is definitely not fun calving to attend too.

00:13:25: Right, so any medications?

00:13:27: I guess we should consider.

00:13:29: or conversely do you always need medication?

00:13:32: And what type of medications might those be?

00:13:35: Yeah there's different types of medications to consider.

00:13:37: when i mentioned was antibiotics for me it depends on the situation.

00:13:42: There's lots of antibiotics out there, so we do need to be cognant about milk and meat withdrawals.

00:13:47: And how were utilizing those drugs?

00:13:49: If you are using them for appropriate treatments... So definitely working with your veterinarian to make sure that you come up with a protocol as to when use antibiotics after difficult calving or not-to.

00:14:00: From personal perspective I don't always use antibiotics but they're definitely times where i will use them whether it is trauma or dead calf Systemic diseases that I'm concerned about.

00:14:14: so definitely make sure you have a protocol in place with your veterinarian About which antibiotics to use and when to use them post calving.

00:14:21: So, that's one one drug to consider And

00:14:24: we haven't maybe touched on the.

00:14:26: well just briefly touched on The third stage of calving but you talked about retained placenta.

00:14:31: while yes We have this bit of time here let's may be First of all, when do we have a retained placenta?

00:14:36: Because what's that time frame.

00:14:38: What is the definition of a retained plasenum?.

00:14:40: So retained placenta is... When the placenta has not been released from her birth canal for up to twelve-to twenty four hours so I usually say anything past twenty four hour if that placenta still there.

00:14:53: That considered a retained Placenta and We care about those as i said earlier because often times they will lead To higher risk of those cows developing a uterine infection And then we got to treat them there and they can actually become quite systemically sick from those urine infections as well.

00:15:08: Again, because of the inflammation leading to trauma and inflammation and reduced fertility long-term?

00:15:14: Right!

00:15:14: Obviously that's something where it is... Those are cases when I did talk about those with your veterinarian as well kind of determine a course action.

00:15:23: Oxytocin sometimes ...I know in practice had few producers who wanted every animal that calved a dose of oxytocin.

00:15:32: I will admit, i did use oxytosin in a lot of the cavvings that i dealt with but was using it for one specific reason and only.

00:15:40: Was she a herford?

00:15:41: Yeah!

00:15:41: It's the question you

00:15:42: always

00:15:43: ask?!

00:15:44: But also I milked out every heifer who came into this cavity so my milking abilities wasn't as good.

00:15:57: But yeah, maybe some comment on oxytocin.

00:16:00: Yeah

00:16:00: as many of the Herford people know that breed in particular is quite prone to prolapses.

00:16:06: so oxytosin is good for two things.

00:16:08: one Is it helps with milk let down?

00:16:11: So like you said You may be we're not the greatest at milking out cows and assists With that dropping into the udder.

00:16:20: So good for that, if it's going to be a worrisome.

00:16:22: It also helps with uterine contraction.

00:16:24: so again... If we are worried her uterus is not involuting appropriately and she isn't having those good contractions to make it shrink down some veterinarians might suggest giving oxytocin as treatment either prevent these prolapses or help involute and shrink the uterus down.

00:16:41: where I'm gonna say its NOT gonna work is your retain.

00:16:45: placenta retains fetal membranes And the reason behind that is sort of just based on placenta is.

00:16:55: So if we think about the placenta, there's a maternal side and a fetal side And they interlock together kind of like If you were in.

00:17:02: this is how one of my mentors Chuck guard always explained it.

00:17:05: It's like you're wearing a glove Okay?

00:17:07: And if the glove Is loose because those connections between your fingers and Your glove have broken down its very easy to get that Glove off.

00:17:16: so That would be Like with A normal cabin where The Connections Between The Fetal and the Maternal Side Breakdown normally, and that placenta releases based on those enzymes and neutrophils.

00:17:28: And other important mediators that help break down.

00:17:31: the connection between the fetal maternal side of placenta comes out within that twelve to twenty four hour period in.

00:17:36: everything is great when there's inflammation like with a dystocia right?

00:17:40: It's like getting your hands smacked in a chute or in a door.

00:17:44: it's going as well.

00:17:45: so then that means at your gloves gonna fit pretty tight which means the breakdown of those connections as well, and it's going to be much more difficult to try and get that glove off.

00:17:56: And the same thing happens with our retained placenas—the fetal side can't separate from the maternal side because those connections in that swelling has

00:18:06: occurred.".

00:18:07: So some people might say if I cause uterine contractions or give oxytocin maybe they'll help push that placenta out but the problem really comes down.

00:18:19: So causing those uterine contractions isn't going to help release the placenta from that attachment of the fetal and maternal side any faster.

00:18:28: It really doesn't do any good for a retained placenta standpoint, right?

00:18:33: There's some really cool research out there looking at injecting collagenase into umbilical arteries in getting it to break down faster.

00:18:43: Honestly, what we usually do is wait for nature to take its course where the neutrophils and other important mediators come there.

00:18:52: They break down those connections by basically necrosis so they have to rot apart.

00:19:00: hopefully comes out in a couple days time.

00:19:02: But it can take up to a week for a placenta to come out when there's been a lot of trauma, especially with the difficult calvings.

00:19:09: so that's why again prevention and understanding how dystocious happen and trying to mitigate them as much as possible is gonna be our best way going forward.

00:19:18: I still remember well we weren't doing it very commonly when i first started practice but where we'd actually go and... We would bring in animals, they hadn't passed the placenta.

00:19:30: And physically going to remove it.

00:19:32: I would say that In some of those cases were did not do many but i was probably pulling more maternal side off than I was removing fetal side Probably causing more trauma.

00:19:44: Yeah So time like you said is often times that's the cure.

00:19:50: That's usually the treatment of choice, yeah and you're absolutely right we used to go in and try and pull and dislocate I guess You could say The fetal maternal sides Of those buttons that you see Those caudaladins Apart from each other.

00:20:04: but your absolute right We now know that were probably causing more trauma by doing that because those connections haven't broken down And where it Probably leads To increased risk of infertility In her next breeding cycle.

00:20:15: so don't be pulling on the, you know.

00:20:18: You can give a little bit of tug and if it comes out then that probably means it was just stuck there in the birth canal.

00:20:22: but... If you gave a little tug to that placenta.

00:20:35: So we've had a difficult calving and whether we assist or not, are these animals in pain?

00:20:46: Yes.

00:20:47: That's my first answer is yes.

00:20:51: But it gets a little bit more difficult than that, of course right?

00:20:53: So we'll chat a little about that.

00:20:56: so cattle feel pain just like you and I do And they have the same receptors as far as feeling this pain.

00:21:03: but one of the difficult parts Is identifying animals in pain.

00:21:08: We know there are prey species.

00:21:11: They tend to not show us when they're feeling sick or painful, or injured.

00:21:16: Right?

00:21:16: They like to hide that and so sometimes it can be quite difficult.

00:21:20: try identify animals in pain.

00:21:22: The other thing about pain for me at least an interesting topic is how the animal reacts or interprets the negative stimulus their are feeling.

00:21:37: So if we think of a calf getting castrated right?

00:21:41: And we're using a knife castration.

00:21:42: That's pretty sharp pain, they are going to feel it in the tissues unless you use some sort of pain mitigation like block or sedation.

00:21:50: but that pain is gonna be felt probably pretty similar between all animals because the amount trauma being experienced if their about same age and weight will be different.

00:22:03: Cavvings are difficult though.

00:22:05: Probably one of my other favorite sayings is a calving, it's not a calvin' and what that means.

00:22:10: Is that no two calvins are alike?

00:22:13: And this comes from the cow side in the calf side.

00:22:16: so you know... A cow who has had prolonged birth may have very different experience level trauma inflammation from a cow we put quite a bit traction on because the calf was really big or I've got to head back Right.

00:22:35: And so the amount of trauma and inflammation between those two is yes, they're both difficult cavines but their going to be experienced differently in them out of information that trauma it's gonna be different very similar to women and childbirth right.

00:22:48: some woman will claim and say oh It was very you know Very little pain.

00:22:53: I didn't have much trauma For cattle, you know.

00:23:02: I think when they're calving depending on the situation there's going to be this range of amount of trauma and inflammation in pain that these animals feel.

00:23:12: However i would say their still good evidence to suggest those animals feel pain giving them some sort of pain mitigation.

00:23:23: so something to help with the pain after a difficult calving is beneficial.

00:23:29: But let's say for just a cow that or a heifer that calves on her own, they're probably not experiencing the same degree of inflammation and injury as we've assisted.

00:23:39: Exactly.

00:23:40: Yeah, and we do have evidence of that We have papers.

00:23:43: one my first papers in my PhD was looking at trauma experienced subclinical Trauma to the calf And we've looked at it in a cow as well.

00:23:52: The easier the dystocia is the less traumatic unless pain they experience Compared To those who have much more difficult calving.

00:24:01: so there are again these gradations In the trauma inflammation.

00:24:06: So probably for your run-of-the mill unassisted We're probably not going to be treating those animals with some sort of pain mitigation.

00:24:13: Also, if you think about it from a beef aspect.

00:24:15: I don't know how many people want to running around in large pastures trying to administer medications To perfectly healthy calves that are outrunning

00:24:25: more

00:24:25: difficult to try and catch them.

00:24:26: But the animals that we're assisting, you know?

00:24:28: We have them in the barn...we know there's evidence it suggests they are feeling pain inflammation trauma.

00:24:34: by administering that pain mitigation can help feel better.

00:24:39: what we found is these animals on the dairy side of things tend to lie more comfortable positions.

00:24:47: They get up and they go to the feed bunk more often.

00:24:50: There are some studies that even suggest these animals actually produce more milk than those who did not get a pain mitigation product after difficult calving, so even production changes but also behavioral changes telling us if these animals feel better or comfortable with this.

00:25:06: inflammatory, painful traumatic experience.

00:25:09: So one of the things I just wanted.

00:25:11: you made a couple comments there that i thought maybe we could dig a little bit more into.

00:25:15: I agree with you that with cattle being prey species it's...it can be challenging to pick out like he said when they're painful and when their sick.

00:25:22: but based on what she said responses too..when do give pain mitigation?

00:25:27: There are some signs subtle Maybe could watch out for with our animals.

00:25:32: I mean the ones where we assist, i think it's easier because We kind of will make The assumption that?

00:25:48: What are some of the things that she might be doing?

00:25:51: It's not where they're going, aww.

00:25:52: But what are some other thing we may look for in those animals to show them their

00:25:56: uncomfortable?".

00:25:57: Yeah and so like I mentioned there is something you can see in their vulva especially in those heifers right after a difficult calving, they get a lot of swelling and bruising in their perineal and birth canal area.

00:26:19: So you can actually physically see the trauma... Right!

00:26:21: ...and just understand that's probably very traumatic.

00:26:25: Yeah animals who don't want to drink water or eat feed are feeling quite a bit of trauma pain and inflammation.

00:26:31: I always say it is good sign.

00:26:32: if i pull a calf and put a bucket of water on front of a cow she starts drinking it readily.

00:26:38: That's a good sign Right.

00:26:40: She feels comfortable enough to drink that water and is able to rehydrate herself, but from the behavior aspect yes usually they'll sort of stay away from the herd again have some of these signs like not wanting to go eat you know even leading to a retained placenta right?

00:26:57: And inflammation in trauma.

00:26:59: we just talked about an indication.

00:27:01: there's enough.

00:27:01: trauma probably also leads into pain.

00:27:04: now We talk about pain mitigation products.

00:27:07: We won't talk necessarily about specific ones, but I guess we should maybe define it a little bit though.

00:27:12: And this is something where... Maybe you can explain a little for the producer?

00:27:15: We talked about NSAIDs.

00:27:17: Could you define that?

00:27:18: just to give an idea of what that is from the

00:27:20: producer?".

00:27:21: Yeah!

00:27:21: So our NSAID stands for the long term non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug.

00:27:27: so What that is, it's very similar to like you and I taking ibuprofen or aspirin.

00:27:32: So it's going to be a pain mitigation that helps with inflammation in pain but isn't one of those sort of higher level pain mitigations like morphine- Right That you might get from the hospital?

00:27:46: so its something we can prescribe for our producers on farm.

00:27:50: It has fairly safe efficacy.

00:27:54: there are different products as well.

00:27:56: That's where I recommend you talking with your veterinarian about which products are appropriate because some work better than others and some should probably be avoided.

00:28:05: Right, just sometimes there may be side effects.

00:28:08: that especially when we're talking about calving um...that-we need to be aware

00:28:13: of.

00:28:13: Yes yes so for example a drug called flunyxin has been shown to lead to an increased risk of retained placentas, ametritis and uterine infections.

00:28:23: And it even says on the label now that company has changed it to say not be given two animals sort in that peri birth period.

00:28:31: because for whatever reason... The way that blocks inflammatory process is that placenta isn't able to separate appropriately.

00:28:38: but we do have other products are approved for use.

00:28:46: Started practice in an era where we didn't necessarily always have these different products available or at least a large variety.

00:28:54: steroids dexamethasone You know, I think we did use it reasonably common for some of the situations.

00:29:01: what Do you have any comments on that?

00:29:02: Yeah.

00:29:03: Dexamethasone is a steroid, so it acts similar to our NSAIDs but NSAID say in the name of non-steroidal.

00:29:11: So how they're different?

00:29:13: are steroids like dexamethazone act up higher on pain and inflammation pathway?

00:29:19: They actually cause more systemic effect where yes they do decrease inflammation But they also have some other negative effects that we want to try and avoid.

00:29:29: And so, we know that these cows, that are calving already have a suppressed immune system because of the high cortisol.

00:29:41: That happens during the normal calving process and it goes up even higher in these cows that are experiencing a difficult calving and cortisol can also depress them immune system and that cow's own ability to fight off infections And so I try an avoid Dexamethasones or steroids from that aspect, only because these animals are already immunocompromised.

00:30:04: I don't want it to lead to any other further compromising where she can fight off normal infections that she might be exposed

00:30:11: too.".

00:30:11: Right and after we just discussed you know the importance of one of the biggest impacts is infection.

00:30:20: you know, exiting the hurt.

00:30:26: Exactly right we talked a little bit about this already but maybe some information on what to look for in these cows and heifers post calving?

00:30:37: To indicate there might be a potential problem.

00:30:39: besides...you clinical signs of pain, but what are some of the other clinical signs for some of these things we're concerned with?

00:30:46: Yeah.

00:30:47: So as we've mentioned multiple times to retain placenta they're at an extremely high risk of developing that.

00:30:53: and then the retain placenta leading this uterine infection.

00:30:57: And I mentioned earlier Uterine infections can actually go systemic in make the cows systemically ill.

00:31:02: so Things That We might see usually inappodance.

00:31:05: so Usually They Just Feel Crappy and They don't want To eat right.

00:31:09: yeah They Oftentimes will have a fever Not always, but sometimes they will have a fever.

00:31:13: And again, fever also makes you feel crappy and you don't want to eat... You don't wanna get up and walk around looking at the discharge that comes out of the vagina as well.

00:31:21: So normally when-when the uterus is involuting after calving cows we'll have a normal Discharge.

00:31:28: it's called lochia.

00:31:29: It kind of this brownish color might look a little chunky And that's normal, but once it starts to turn into sort of this reddish brown color.

00:31:37: It gets very watery and really stinky.

00:31:40: Yeah That when those are all signs at the cow has now developed a uterine infection?

00:32:01: It helps that cow from you know, not getting too systemically ill and leaving the herd early very early because she's so sick From that metritis whether that be because he dies or Because she just stops producing milk.

00:32:15: So speaking with your veterinarian in coming up with a plan about how to diagnose metritis And how to go forward?

00:32:22: Treat these animals is really important.

00:32:25: Obviously I mean it something we're Not waiting too long to intervene in those situations, too.

00:32:32: The earlier you start treatment the better they outcome

00:32:36: or

00:32:36: potentially anyways?

00:32:38: Yeah and if it's on a dairy and then go into our fresh pen where there can be observed multiple times during Just for that first week, so you can keep an eye on her and making sure That calf is nursing.

00:32:55: She's eating she's getting up the placenta has been released At least for that First Week keeping an Eye On Her.

00:33:01: that's going to be The most critical time period.

00:33:04: yeah You mentioned this at the beginning too but it Is something where like said sometimes we neglect?

00:33:09: That cow or that heifer once she's calved.

00:33:12: But It is important To monitor them And look For any of those issues.

00:33:16: you know you've got a positive outcome.

00:33:18: you have A live calf you wind up losing the dam because we didn't keep an eye on it, right?

00:33:24: Exactly.

00:33:25: And then you've got a whole nother problem of trying to find either bottle baby or cross-fosterine... Yes.

00:33:32: ...or another issue dealing with orphan calves.

00:33:35: Right!

00:33:35: You mentioned this earlier too but that good cow calf bond—that maternal bond will be talking with Dr.

00:33:43: Windier in next episode.

00:33:47: from the calf perspective What things can we do or what might affect it on the cow side?

00:33:53: And and what things can We do to kind of help enhance that bond Or make sure that it forms in that a that.

00:33:59: We don't have her rejecting this calf.

00:34:01: Yeah,

00:34:01: so This is more So for the cow-calf operation not necessarily For the dairy industry.

00:34:07: right

00:34:07: because the dairy they're Not keeping them.

00:34:09: but yeah exactly.

00:34:10: But you know if there's new research looking at leaving In calves with cows, so things might change in our lifetime as well.

00:34:17: But definitely from the cow-calf side Ms.

00:34:19: Mothering is always something that we worry about and think about And one of the risk factors That We've Always Talked About Is If a Cow Experiences A Difficult Birth She Might Be Experiencing This Pain & Inflammation And Not Want To Mother Up And Take Care Of Her Offspring As Readily Because She Herself Is Not Feeling Very Good.

00:34:41: And we know too that these animals, they also are not able to isolate themselves even after that calving right?

00:34:48: So maybe- Yeah.

00:34:49: We need put the cow and calf into a pen by themselfs help incorporate in allow natural maternal neonatal bond occur which is so important especially on beef side of things.

00:35:01: it's may be some management decisions our producers will have think about.

00:35:04: Right That makes sense I guess from what you're saying.

00:35:08: You know, trying to mitigate the pain is one way and at least remove one factor.

00:35:13: Try make sure that our environment we're putting down in that calf into isn't overcrowded or stressful... ...isn't distracting to allow that bond to form.

00:35:23: Those are some things I guess from a cow side where you can try to enhance it.

00:35:28: I don't know that we'll ever completely eliminate Miss Mothering, but...I have heard and i'm sure you have as well.

00:35:34: There's the pheromone products that are recently come out on the market And some of what they talk about with those products is to address Ms.

00:35:43: Mothering, just I'm not sure if you have a lot of knowledge on those or not?

00:35:47: Or do we still have evidence in the products yet but any comments about

00:35:51: them?".

00:35:52: Yeah so it can speak... We actually had a PhD student here at the University of Calgary Emma Rowe.

00:35:58: she's working under Ed Pager and is looking for Ms.

00:36:01: Mothering in beef cattle And how do we classify it?

00:36:05: She's actually looking at strategies to try and mitigate that.

00:36:11: One of the things she has done is identify what are the types of mismothering, right?

00:36:16: There's a cow who doesn't want her calf so avoids it.

00:36:19: there's this very aggressive towards her calf which tries to hurt them.

00:36:28: You're here, but I'm not really going to spend a lot of energy taking care of you.

00:36:32: So she's working on that project as well is looking at management factors like getting the calf to nurse early putting them in a pen together and trying facilitate those bonds.

00:36:43: so hopefully next year or so we'll be seeing these publications come out And have new information about how to deal with it.

00:36:51: Miss Mothering isn't common when we think producers only, you know reports about one to two percent of their animals in the herd actually Needing help with with miss mothering.

00:37:04: but when you look at it At the herd level over fifty percent Of herds are actually dealing With this problem on there hurt.

00:37:09: so again It's sort of similar to dystocious.

00:37:12: That may not be something that's really common But it still is something they're having To deal with a regular basis.

00:37:17: So us trying to move forward and come up with management strategies Secure that bond or prevent that miss mothering by better understanding it is going to be really important.

00:37:27: Going forward for

00:37:28: sure old producer That his solution too, Miss Mothering was a shot of whiskey For the cow Shot of whiskey for the calf

00:37:38: and two

00:37:39: shots of whisky for himself.

00:37:42: There

00:37:45: you go.

00:37:47: Well, and it takes a lot of time too.

00:37:49: in a study that my master's student did.

00:37:51: She asked producers to try an estimate the amount get that calf onto another cow or who's going to raise that calf, right?

00:38:10: Because thats the job of a cow on a cow-calf operation.

00:38:13: Well and you hit the nail in head there.

00:38:16: I mean it is one those things where its not common but dealing with even if its only especially in a beef herd, it's something where the challenge is as you've usually got other things.

00:38:30: You're dealing with.

00:38:30: there are other animals calving like.

00:38:32: It's not...you don't have only one cow and calf pair that you're dealing With.

00:38:36: so

00:38:37: There's lot of other things that need your attention at That same time exactly.

00:38:40: So bit-it's One Of The busiest times of the year And so to have To spend extra labor Having to manage this pair can be Quite A quite a bit of work.

00:38:50: Yeah and potentially I have impacts on the Other animals In the herd because you're not able to monitor them as closely, right?

00:38:57: Yes.

00:38:58: Exactly!

00:38:59: One of the things I guess...I always got questions about, you know, heifer that comes in we do a C-section or even a cow that has uh..you know i spend a long time trying to correct breach presentation.

00:39:12: pull it out.

00:39:13: what's the long term consequences for these animals?

00:39:15: Do We Keep Them?

00:39:17: And and I realize well your probably gonna tell me its' not simple answer

00:39:22: It depends Right, exactly.

00:39:25: But what kind of guidelines do you have for this?

00:39:28: And like I said it depends a lot of producers... It depends also on the outcome.

00:39:34: so if they have a dystocia and that calf is dead especially on the cow-calf side of things because she doesn't have a calf to raise And if they don't have another calf to put on her, she's probably going to be cold at some point and removed from the herd.

00:39:50: But thinking about that health aspects we sort of mentioned this at the beginning you know?

00:39:54: The decrease in production the decrease in milk production, uh... The uterine infections that lead to infertility on-on the beef side as well as the dairy side.

00:40:06: All those things lead to this involuntary choline as we call it so animals being removed from herd earlier than when would like too.

00:40:15: but there are some sort of health or production constraints made the producer make a decision to remove them.

00:40:23: So that's probably one of the hardest things, but look at the cause of the dystocia.

00:40:27: if it was a head back?

00:40:29: That's not really the cow's fault right?

00:40:31: I'm probably... A lot of producers are probably NOT going to remove a cow from her because of THAT cause of dystocial.

00:40:38: But If its something for example you have her with a really small pelvis or she has sort-of deformed pelvis where she has this extra bump in there and prevents that calf coming out well probably going to be there again at her next calving.

00:40:51: And so a lot of beef producers, especially with their heifers.

00:40:54: they might consider depending on the cause getting rid of those heifors and not dealing with the consequences of it happening again

00:41:01: right?

00:41:02: I guess that's very least than always.

00:41:03: one of my answers to producers was At The Very Least this is One Strike On This Animals List.

00:41:10: if she has other things are going on.

00:41:12: That puts her higher on the list.

00:41:14: then a cow doesn't have had you know a calving issue.

00:41:19: So the worst case scenario I remember is it was my first year out in practice.

00:41:23: This producer brings this half, well wasn't a heifer anymore.

00:41:26: sorry It was a cow.

00:41:28: Mm-hmm

00:41:29: her fourth calf Her fourth C section.

00:41:32: Oh gosh You might as well put his zipper in there at that point

00:41:36: Right?

00:41:37: And so again and then end of day.

00:41:39: i mean you know He lost money on.

00:41:41: not because

00:41:42: oh yes

00:41:43: You just, you're not going to make any money doing a C-section on it.

00:41:46: No!

00:41:46: Your saving the animal but... I'm

00:41:49: surprised she bred back every time.

00:41:51: that's impressive.

00:41:51: Well and even though….

00:41:52: You must have done really good c-sections of her all those years?

00:41:55: Yeah yeah there was surprising how little scar tissue actually went in when we did do that.

00:42:01: But its something where his answer for me recommended him color.

00:42:07: She always raises such lovely calf And it's like, well but anyways.

00:42:11: But at the end of day that animal would have cost him a significant amount of money in his herd.

00:42:17: so...

00:42:18: Well and you have to think about we're not going to talk about it in this episode but the effects on the calf too right?

00:42:23: So even if you have alive calf some of the negative affects happen with those calves as far as health and growth and production themselves later on are also concerns that we need

00:42:36: Definitely.

00:42:36: Is there anything else as it pertains to the cow?

00:42:39: So, the calf was on the ground and we talked about some of the potential things to look for.

00:42:44: as far as complications We talked about retained placenta .We talked about potential for infection Of The uterus ,we talked About On-the-dairy side Some other metabolic diseases that could be occurring As well... We Talked about that maternal cow-calf bond things that we can do to help promote that.

00:43:05: We talked about the fact these animals experience pain and at least consider that, um...we may need some pain relief for those animals.

00:43:16: Is there anything else you think we've missed or is important for producers from the perspective of the cow?

00:43:24: The heifer

00:43:24: I think if we could prevent them all possible in our first episode.

00:43:30: think about early intervention, know the risks and sort of aftermath issues that we're going to have with these cows.

00:43:38: like we said pain.

00:43:39: Think about pain mitigation, think about these infertility issues that might be associated with uterine infections and being able to recognize those and treat them earlier on... And just be aware some negative consequences again.

00:43:51: if you can prevent this from happening in the beginning or at least mitigate by interacting early on to decrease some of the risk of these negative health events, then I think that's going to make a better outcome for the cow and the calf.

00:44:05: That I think encompasses a complete message with that.

00:44:08: And I think back to your point again we need to be cautious in ignoring these animals after calving... Yes!

00:44:16: ...that we do kind sometimes focus too much on the calf?

00:44:21: Sometimes…and i recognize that calving season is busy time.

00:44:25: if you're on beef operation Yes.

00:44:27: And on a dairy operation, there's always something going on that divides our attention.

00:44:34: but it is important to especially in the first week at least monitor those animals and look for any of these potential complications?

00:44:43: Yeah

00:44:44: I agree.

00:44:44: Well

00:44:45: thats great Jen!

00:44:45: I really appreciate your time here today.

00:44:48: i think you had lots And I'm looking forward to talking with Dr.

00:44:55: Windier next and, um...and talking about things from the CAF perspective.

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