Supporting the newborn calf || S’occuper du veau nouveau-né

00:00:02: Welcome to the Heard Health podcast, a convenient place where you can stay up-to-date on the dairy and beef cattle industry in Canada.

00:00:09: With information shared from our technical services veterinarian team we aim to bring producers ranchers and veterinarians relevant insights on trends management practices And science that can be applied in the field.

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00:00:37: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts from.

00:00:53: Thank.

00:00:55: I have the pleasure today of welcoming Dr.

00:00:57: Claire Windier.

00:00:58: Claire, thanks for being with us here today!

00:01:00: Thanks

00:01:01: for having me

00:01:02: to get started.

00:01:02: why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself so our listeners know who we're speaking with?

00:01:07: Sure i am a veterinarian and a consulting with Acer Consulting.

00:01:12: So For About Fourteen Years I was a professor at The University Calgary Faculty Of Vet Med where I taught in the vet program And did clinical research mostly focused on calf health and producer decision-making.

00:01:24: And then last fall I joined Acer, which is a company that aims to support all sorts of different clients within the agricultural sector in conducting and communicating research.

00:01:34: One thing you and i have known one another for quite awhile... ...and I know the whole topic of calving and calf health is really passionate about why.

00:01:44: what's behind that Claire?

00:01:45: Yeah, it's funny.

00:01:46: You told me you were going to ask this question and it was nice actually think about for a while because I don't always stop thinking of these things And part goes back.

00:01:54: when we did a fair number of calvings We spend literal blood sweat and tears trying get that calf out And then often I would feel sort of relatively helpless.

00:02:05: You know, you get them on the ground and they look so pathetic that there's not much time at least... ...I didn't really know what to do with them that much!

00:02:11: That kind of drove me once started up a university to research new born beef calves which is hard because you can't schedule cows to calves.

00:02:23: There are no people doing work in this area but it was tricky.

00:02:27: It also made it rewarding as well I think.

00:02:32: the other thing is over the years, i've really come to realize that calving season is one of the hardest times of the year at least for beef producers.

00:02:40: And so anything we could do help those producers.

00:02:43: they seem to be keen on gaining additional information.

00:02:47: and another part no-one likes having dead calves.

00:02:51: it's hard on people.

00:02:53: there are some mental health impacts though you know, being able to help these calves and also the people who are trying take care of them has been really rewarding over the years.

00:03:06: Yeah that really summarizes it well I think my own clinical experience with calvings.

00:03:12: they can be very rewarding.

00:03:13: always thinking about as a simple problem there's a calf inside needs come out.

00:03:18: The execution of that sometimes is more challenging, but you're right.

00:03:21: And once it's out on the ground now what?

00:03:23: What more can we do?

00:03:24: and as he said especially in the beef world It something where its a little bit more challenging.

00:03:28: unless you lived through the seventies and eighties Where we had continental breeds come to Canada were people have tons of calving difficulties.

00:03:37: You just don't have numbers To always get data.

00:03:40: Yeah usually one calf that your trying help But also got another cow calving pairs to move, and there's a hundred other things also going on at the same time.

00:03:51: So every slow calf is more labor when you're already sleep deprived so we can get them taken care of themselves.

00:03:59: everybody's happier.

00:04:01: So before we start on the topic today, is there any other passions that you have?

00:04:07: And again because we've known each other for so long.

00:04:09: I know you have that passion about research and calving but also this passion of communicating those results to end user or producer.

00:04:18: maybe talk a little bit about it.

00:04:19: You're right It's something really a driver For me.

00:04:22: i always felt that research was only as good how it drives change.

00:04:27: And so being published in a research journal doesn't really help people make decisions on farm, and So It's been a big part of actually why I went to Acer.

00:04:36: is my role there as knowledge mobilization Actually trying build capacity within agriculture?

00:04:44: Yeah its definitely something i'm very excited about.

00:04:46: How do we do better job?

00:04:48: bridging the world of research To the farm?

00:04:50: Making difference for producers?

00:04:54: And I mean, hopefully this podcast today will kind of help bridge that gap a little bit as well.

00:05:00: Yeah

00:05:00: you didn't have to twist my arm to come talk about the stuff?

00:05:02: No

00:05:03: so in previous episodes we had talked with Dr.

00:05:05: Jen Pearson first of all how do identify difficult calving or dystocia and what types interventions are appropriate.

00:05:14: In the second episode, we talked about how the cow was affected or the dam is effected in a dystocia.

00:05:20: Today our topic with you Claire's going to be talk about How Dystocia Impacts The Calf.

00:05:26: So maybe we'll start off just...how can that dystocial impact the calf?

00:05:32: Yeah, that's a great question and I think there are few numbers important to start with.

00:05:37: One is one in four deaths of beef calves before weaning can usually be traced back around the time of calving particularly having difficult births for forty-eight hours of birth and about five percent of pre weaning deaths are due to something related to a calving issue.

00:05:58: So number one impact is mortality, right?

00:06:01: It's that they don't survive.

00:06:03: the other part is if they do survive those calves often more likely get sick or require treatment.

00:06:09: And then being treated means you often have as high a weaning weight than otherwise so sick calves don't grow.

00:06:18: And so all of that, you know a big part why it is comes from the fact these calves are often weak.

00:06:24: They're often slow they may be painful and often ones get chilled So their less likely to get up and suck colostrum.

00:06:32: I think we'll talk more about that later.

00:06:33: Of course thats bigger issue for our beef calves than dairy calves where were usually getting in there helping but essentially not getting enough.

00:06:40: Colostrum right off the bat really sets them up for not doing as well, right?

00:06:45: It's a big driver.

00:06:47: Not saying healthy or growing well and surviving to weaning.

00:06:51: So kind of to sum that up, one of the biggest issues with a difficult calving is the increased risk of mortality which is big deal obviously.

00:06:59: but then there even those who do survive can be more long-term impacts based on health and performance as well.

00:07:07: There's lots things that negatively impact that calf from a dystocia.

00:07:12: Correct.

00:07:13: yeah absolutely

00:07:14: I know, I've heard this when i was in practice and you probably hear a fair bit.

00:07:20: And especially the current market conditions more pounds is more dollars.

00:07:24: but You get some people that say A bigger calf at birth or heavier would be another way to consider it means your going to wean a heavier calf.

00:07:35: so what's the big deal of having assisted calving?

00:07:39: That's going to pay for it right there, that extra weight gain.

00:07:42: What would you say to those people?

00:07:44: put that question forth?

00:07:46: Yeah and I do get that question.

00:07:49: And its true that bigger calves at birth are gonna be bigger at weaning...I can't deny that.

00:07:54: but the key is they have to survive to weaning!

00:07:57: And i always like to say dead calves don't weigh anything at weening.

00:08:01: So if they dont make it You lose all of these potential pounds.

00:08:05: The other part because their more likely to get sick.

00:08:08: sick calves don't weigh as much as they would have.

00:08:11: So, I think in the big picture those maybe a few larger calves... Don't pay for all of the other issues that you have avoided by having smaller calves.

00:08:23: and Dr.

00:08:24: Pearson brought up the economic analysis we did when he thought about it at the herd level.

00:08:32: When we did that analysis, assisted cows cost the herd about a hundred and twenty dollars.

00:08:37: Assisted heifers cost about two hundred sixty dollars.

00:08:40: They didn't just not make money they cost money

00:08:43: Right.

00:08:43: And

00:08:44: so few extra pounds on the calves that survive versus all of those other costs.

00:08:50: More culling in the cow's more treatment In the cows than the calves More mortality in the cows then the calves.

00:08:57: It doesn't make up for it.

00:08:59: Yeah, and I guess it really comes down to getting them set up right off the start is kind of the best way to make sure that you're going get paid for your calf in the fall.

00:09:09: And so trying to get a few extra pounds by having a bigger calf at birth just doesn't pencil out.

00:09:15: The other thing that i would say is... A cow that doesn't wean a calf actually worse than an open cow?

00:09:21: We spend time thinking about reproductive performance which of course is important but If you feed that cow all winter long, you've put all of the additional expense into her and then if she doesn't wean a calf.

00:09:33: She's not paying for that.

00:09:35: so I always say calf mortality actually has bigger economic impact than even having open cows.

00:09:41: Right completely makes sense.

00:09:43: those extra days on feed comes out in someone's pocket.

00:09:46: it is always producer right?

00:09:47: Yeah its feet are big expense for sure.

00:09:50: So some general impacts can be seen.

00:09:54: how do we know when a calf was having trouble post calving?

00:09:57: Yeah, so there's a few things that we can look out for.

00:09:59: And I think Dr.

00:10:01: Pearson mentioned sort of subclinical trauma decreased vigor the risk of not getting colostrum and those are all super important considerations.

00:10:09: and maybe it'll backtrack us a little bit as to what happens to the calf?

00:10:13: Then how we can detect after they're born.

00:10:16: So two main things are oxygen deprivation.

00:10:23: The oxygen deprivation happens when that calf is not yet able to breathe air, so they're still in the womb.

00:10:30: Their head's not out into the barn breathing air but their ambillicus gets compressed or cut off because when there are in the wound, the ambillicus has a source of oxygen right?

00:10:40: So if that gets cutoff...the source incoming gets cut-off.

00:10:43: They're not able to breath yet That can cause them to be deprived of oxygen

00:10:47: And any delay and then coming up Compounds that the one side happens.

00:10:52: Yeah,

00:10:52: yeah The longer the calving the longer of the oxygen deprivation a little bit higher the risk of oxygen deposition.

00:10:58: Yes And then the other one is the trauma right and so That can be whether it's you know We get a little big gung-ho and they active.

00:11:05: getting them out Is a little but rough or even if it's just really difficult pulse?

00:11:10: A really big calf tight birth canal bad mel presentation, whatever sort of the act of getting them out.

00:11:16: If that's really rough then we can see a fair amount of trauma.

00:11:19: so it's like oxygen deprivation is when it takes too long and the trauma happens maybe to fast or hard

00:11:26: right?

00:11:27: And

00:11:27: every calvings going be slightly different combination those two things.

00:11:31: usually every calf has both but how much one versus other depends on each calving.

00:11:37: A

00:11:37: posterior presentation, I was thinking probably a little bit even at higher risk in that when those legs and those hips are kind of engaging into the pelvis now.

00:11:46: That's right where you start getting chinking off or compression of that umbilicus And of course not because the head is coming first.

00:11:54: Now You have to wait until the whole calf has just about out before it's able to breathe.

00:11:58: so yeah Probably even a high risk of hypoxia Or potential hypoxier or oxygen starvation In those calves.

00:12:05: Yeah, for sure.

00:12:06: And I know a lot of producers that as soon as they know their back feet use the jack... Yes!

00:12:11: ...for that particular reason is it's not because its hard pull but want to be able do quickly and get head out.

00:12:17: A

00:12:17: backwards presentation can normal and completely fine But you wanna make sure happens quickly.

00:12:24: That definitely situation where don't want delay.

00:12:27: So i guess go back your question earlier about sort.

00:12:30: what might we see in those calves.

00:12:32: So for oxygen deprivation, often the first thing you'll notice is those calves aren't breathing very well when they hit the ground right?

00:12:38: Those are the ones that... They should be coughing, sneezing shaking their head kind of making that.

00:12:43: I won't do it through the podcast but the sound that we all know that they make great!

00:12:47: Right?!

00:12:48: For my students i used to make a lot of sound effects but I won' t do that here.

00:12:51: But y'know..they make sort of snorting noise and they should be clearing the fetal fluids from there upper airway.

00:12:56: And so if they have been oxygen deprived Often they won't be doing that stuff right away.

00:13:02: There'll be more floppy and quiet.

00:13:04: They can be pale or even blue.

00:13:06: It's hard when there are a black-hided cattle, but the gums in the tongue may be pale Or blue.

00:13:11: we've all I think seen those swollen heads and swollen tongues.

00:13:15: That's a sign that they were In their too long essentially And the blood flow got cut off while they were being born.

00:13:21: So that fluid kind of pooled into head?

00:13:27: has impacts on their ability to then go on and suck colostrum.

00:13:31: So we'll

00:13:32: talk about

00:13:32: that I think in a little bit.

00:13:34: the other one, And We did this with some research number of years ago now but a weak tongue withdrawal or suckle reflex.

00:13:41: So you can sort of pull the tongue out and it should in a vigorous calf that's going to snap right back into their mouth, yes But a dull or oxygen deprived calf That tongue is just gonna sort of lull around in there mouth.

00:13:53: And thats like ten minutes after birth.

00:13:55: You check that most vigorous calves.

00:13:58: they're gonna have good tongue withdrawal correlated with how much oxygen deprivation they've had.

00:14:06: And then the other one is suckle reflex.

00:14:08: so just putting a finger in their mouth, a vigorous calf's gonna latch on at least sort of like they're going to react.

00:14:14: try to suckle it a little bit versus a dull calf will just sort of ignore or not notice there.

00:14:21: So that's another good one, check in terms of assessing those calves.

00:14:24: Yeah and simple tool any producer can do to assess those calves right?

00:14:29: Just kind of check for the tongue withdrawal and check that sucker reflex

00:14:33: And you could look at all three mucous membranes while your are in there too.

00:14:42: It takes longer if the calf is vigorous, right?

00:14:44: Because they'll be fighting you.

00:14:45: If the calf has dull it takes no time at all to check that.

00:14:48: and in this suckle reflex we've looked at that And that's a really strong predictor of whether or not those calves are gonna get up and nurse quickly on their own and Get that colostrum You know promptly.

00:14:58: so it's an easy one to check and it tells you a lot about what you need To do next.

00:15:02: exactly yeah

00:15:04: And I guess the other one in terms of both, you know oxygen deprivation.

00:15:07: also trauma is just how dull or vigorous that calf is as i've kind of mentioned already.

00:15:12: You know a calf should be trying to get up pretty soon after birth.

00:15:16: ideally they're up in thirty minutes and if their not up in two hours we are definitely worried about that calf.

00:15:21: something's wrong right?

00:15:23: So so just...just how quickly it gets moving tells us alot about there status.

00:15:31: would have seen lots of these, too.

00:15:32: And I saw a lot in practice and which i thought was always an indicator of calf that had some difficulty.

00:15:38: or those calves that come out... That yellow staining about meconium?

00:15:44: You know?

00:15:45: comment on that Claire.

00:15:46: if you wouldn't

00:15:47: Yeah for sure!

00:15:49: The bluntest way to say it is If they've had tough calving They pooped themselves right as

00:15:53: the meconeum

00:15:55: Is that first poop pass after they're born, but if they get really stressed during the process.

00:16:02: They will release that while there's still either in the uterus or in the birth canal.

00:16:06: and so they come out sort of smeared in that nasty.

00:16:10: it's very tarry sort of orangey brown almost yellow.

00:16:13: sometimes It helps when they have white.

00:16:16: you know If their a herford is something they've got some white on them.

00:16:18: its more noticeable.

00:16:19: Yeah,

00:16:21: but when you get it on your hands.

00:16:22: You know?

00:16:23: It's pretty nasty stuff.

00:16:24: and yeah that is a sign of stress during calving.

00:16:28: And if they breathe that in then That can be really bad.

00:16:33: essentially right.

00:16:34: If they breathed this in that could cause an aspiration pneumonia which can be fatal.

00:16:38: so thats definitely A bad sign.

00:16:40: we are going to want give those calves extra attention.

00:16:43: So you mentioned trauma Clare.

00:16:45: what would some?

00:16:46: the signs of Trauma In these calves?

00:16:48: So, trauma sometimes takes a little bit longer for us to notice or isn't quite as obvious off the bat as oxygen deprivation.

00:16:56: And so unless we've done something like accidentally broken a bone or caused some cuts or abrasions to the skin or there's some major swelling often the trauma is what we call subclinical and so with some of our research that there's pretty substantial subclinical trauma.

00:17:13: That happens in these calves, even when they look totally normal to us right?

00:17:17: And so... Right!

00:17:18: ...that something can affect them.

00:17:19: you know again their gonna be dull.

00:17:21: They might not get up or suck as quickly Their going to less active during the first day.

00:17:27: we have some challenges with them bonding with their dam.

00:17:30: Those are sort of more subtle signs.

00:17:31: You'll see

00:17:33: One of the things that I found interesting, there was research showing... And again you don't know that unless your actually looking for it with specifically ultrasound in some those papers.

00:17:45: Was actual amount of broken ribs even we encounter and calves With dissociate.

00:17:49: but i would have said not recognize when is practice.

00:17:54: Yeah Terry Olivette did some really cool research.

00:17:57: she's using ultrasound to look respiratory disease or pneumonia.

00:18:02: And they found six percent of the dairy calves in that study had broken ribs and they could tie back to having been an assisted calving, again there were just normal calves bopping around.

00:18:12: nobody really... They probably weren't bopping round actually but it wasn't anything people noticed when they have these healing broken ribs.

00:18:20: so I think yeah definitely something we don't necessarily appreciate is going on for sure.

00:18:27: You talked earlier about suckle reflex, but anything that we can do I guess to try and help promote that?

00:18:33: Suckle reflex or...to improve that calf vigor.

00:18:36: Yeah

00:18:36: sorry you mean like in response to a poor suckle reflux?

00:18:40: Or

00:18:40: yeah just with the difficult calving in general i guess

00:18:43: yes.

00:18:43: so some of the things That We Can Do After That Difficult Calving To Get That Calf Going It Really Starts With Them Breathing Right As Sort Of.

00:18:51: First And Foremost If They're Not Breathing There's not A Lot else that we need to worry about.

00:18:56: So first and foremost, you know?

00:18:57: We want to get them breathing I know this has been a bit of a sort-of soapbox thing for me is not hanging calves over gates.

00:19:04: That's always something it feels really rewarding because when you hang them over gate You got the big glob of fetal fluids And you think oh yeah!

00:19:12: It cleared out their lungs.

00:19:14: But actually now Fluid is actually coming from the stomach rather than the lungs and most of the fluid in the lungs Actually gets reabsorbed back into the lung tissues.

00:19:23: So hanging him over-the-gate Is not?

00:19:26: Actually helping them because you're actually putting all The weight of those intestines then push down on the lungs.

00:19:30: And the analogy I make is sort if you have a cold, and You're having trouble breathing.

00:19:35: Do you want to put your head between your knees?

00:19:37: Probably not, right?

00:19:39: It's pretty miserable when you have to bend down and pick something up.

00:19:43: So we don't want to be making it harder for them to breathe or hanging over a gate.

00:19:47: My colleague Phil Meadows is done producer meetings in what he does to kind of illustrate your point as you know, as your face is turning red because of all that weight putting pressure on your lungs.

00:20:01: I don't do that Because i can't do a headstand without falling over but he does A good job Of illustrating That point exactly when you think about it, and I know that there's lots of producers who have done that.

00:20:13: And i think they've been doing a good job communicating the message but its'a really is not helping those animals at all.

00:20:21: like said The fluid looks like your yet to do something But Its Not Really Coming From Where We Want It To.

00:20:28: Now we have the mental picture of Phil doing headstands in some conference room.

00:20:33: Of course he would do that.

00:20:34: That sounds like Phil.

00:20:37: I like figuring out how to communicate this stuff.

00:20:41: And, i think it's really hard to tell people not to do something especially when you have this newborn calf that is not breathing.

00:20:46: You're desperate and saying well now your telling me NOT TO DO THE THING THAT I THINK I NEED TO DO TO TRY AND SAVE IT!

00:20:55: But do this instead right?

00:20:56: You need an option B. so thats where we get into the calf recovery position which also known as CAF yoga is sort of sitting them up on their chest.

00:21:07: And the trick that I've learned from other smarter people than me over the years is say if you pull those back feet up towards their ears, it kind of helps that calf balance.

00:21:16: Because if you just sort to put them on their chest... The first thing a calf does is flop back over and upside.

00:21:21: But If you pull these legs out then they get stuck there until its really vigorous and ready-to stand.

00:21:27: It kinda props itself in this position because they have lots of good stuff about all this that we're talking about, but some pictures can help people visualize.

00:21:41: podcasts are hard for them.

00:21:43: What exactly does the position look like?

00:21:47: What that does is it allows both sides of that calf's chest, so the lungs on either side equal opportunity to expand.

00:21:54: Right?

00:21:54: If they're on their side then the down lung is always experiencing some level of gravity and pressure.

00:22:00: but if you put them up on their chest or tummy than... That allows both lungs a chance to expand.

00:22:05: Right, no pressure on them from the weight of just kind of being one side or the other.

00:22:10: Yeah

00:22:10: exactly so.

00:22:11: once you get them up in that position then you can start rubbing them with towels poking the nasal septum which essentially is that tissue between.

00:22:24: When you go to find a pokey piece of straw in an abbing pen, they're all covered in fetal fluid.

00:22:30: So having a pen then you have something that's at least firm that you can poke them into nose with.

00:22:34: That's just sort of pressure point that helps stimulate breathing.

00:22:38: The other trick is squirting water on their ears or splashing some water on the head.

00:22:43: You gotta be careful not getting too enthusiastic and don't want to soak.

00:22:48: give them an ear infection by flooding their ear, but a little squirt of water in the air.

00:22:52: It tricks their body into thinking that they're drowning.

00:22:54: and right?

00:22:56: They gasp!

00:22:56: I like to do this when what i was teaching students are always be like so those you who falling asleep now if came here and gave me wet willy... What would you

00:23:03: do?!

00:23:04: Right?

00:23:05: And quick inflation or quick inspiration helps expand those lungs.

00:23:10: it helps break tension and fill with air sort gets process going.

00:23:16: So taking some advantage of those natural reflexes to get... And again, because when that calf comes out the lungs are not inflated very well.

00:23:25: They need a big intake of breath to do that expansion.

00:23:29: It's like that first part where you're trying to blow up a balloon.

00:23:32: The hardest part is that first little bit and once it gets going then its easier.

00:23:37: but getting your first little bite to get that rubber expanding Is the hardest part.

00:23:41: That exactly what these new lungs are doing.

00:23:44: Perfect analogy.

00:23:46: I just came up with that as we were speaking, so there you go.

00:23:48: Good

00:23:49: job!

00:23:49: The other one and... We've done a bit of research looking at- You know those?

00:23:53: It's called the McCullough Mask Respirator or people sometimes call them like the calf pump Or the respirator pumps.

00:23:59: They're kind of like gigantic syringe..We have some research looking for those As well what is called laryngeal mask airway Which essentially is device used by human paramedics to gain access to airways in the field, it just kind of sits at the back of the throat.

00:24:15: And so those actually both of those we've shown can be useful and getting those lungs to expand or getting a calf who's not breathing to breathe.

00:24:23: now that research was all under controlled settings because yes waiting for a cat who can't breath is really hard clinically yeah.

00:24:31: So We had to do that sort of been more controlled settings.

00:24:33: but oxygen flow to the blood in those studies where we used both of those devices, helped those calves get more oxygen into their blood.

00:24:43: potential tools to have on hand anyways.

00:24:45: The other thing I will say about that in terms of getting them breathing and that immediate resuscitation, sort of my experience is if they don't have a heartbeat it's really hard to get them going.

00:24:55: but as long as the heart beat thats when i'm gonna continue trying to give them to breathe.

00:24:59: because sometimes there'll be weak heartbeats or they're not breathing you just keep at for little bit then can go right?

00:25:06: But If They Don't Have A Heart Beat You know, and calves are pretty easy to feel their heartbeat.

00:25:11: Just kind of have put your hand around that part of the chest So

00:25:14: right behind you or kind of underneath?

00:25:15: The elbow is kind of a good place to kind of put your hands for that.

00:25:19: Right yeah Yeah.

00:25:21: And usually because they're pretty little at this point It can field heart rate through there just come between their ribs.

00:25:26: And so if there's no heartbeat you're probably.

00:25:28: you know There are some heroic measures but my experience They're not very successful.

00:25:32: But If there Is A Heartbeat you can sometimes get some of those ones to breathe.

00:25:36: So, just keep at it and keep pestering them.

00:25:39: essentially then some will come around and start breathing... And

00:25:44: so what other interventions might we look for these calves?

00:25:48: Get them breathing first!

00:25:50: The next thing to consider would be thinking about using anti-inflammatory drugs like a bovine equivalent of ibuprofen.

00:26:01: And so there's more and more research, both in beef and dairy calves that using an NSAID or a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug after assisted cabbings can help those calves be more active.

00:26:13: We did one study where we gave an NSAid to beef calves—and this is my favorite I have to admit —this was my favorite research finding ever!

00:26:20: Our calves played more.

00:26:22: They were more active... There was higher proportion of the time they spent playing when they weren't assisted calving.

00:26:29: Every

00:26:30: time you tell me that I always have the vision of the calves kind of jumping or running around and kicking their legs, just play

00:26:37: more.

00:26:38: Yeah it's one of my favorite things during calving season is driving down the road seeing calves playing.

00:26:45: so nobody doesn't like seeing playful calves right?

00:26:49: It seems silly but actually pretty important.

00:26:52: when think about these are calves often in a barn they're causing extra labor And if they're feeling good enough to be up and moving, it means that we can kick them out of the barn sooner.

00:27:04: That not only has benefits in terms of labor or space for other cows—it's practical when making room for other cow coming through the barn —but also has benefits with biosecurity as well.

00:27:14: The less time you spend at a bar depending on where you are and what kind of calving system have.

00:27:18: but generally you want these calves out clean dry well-bedded ground, you don't want them stuck in a barn or in a dirty calving pen.

00:27:28: So the more you can get those calves out paired up with their dam and in a clean dry environment, the better they're going to do right?

00:27:37: We joke about the playing thing but it actually has some really important practical implications for producers.

00:27:42: Yeah I mean we talked about trauma kind of earlier on... But what that trauma does is results in pain in these animals when prey species.

00:27:53: I know we talked a little bit with Jen on this earlier too, is it's challenging...I mean they don't say this hurts but We do see those subtle behavior changes and you know.

00:28:04: so a calf that's playful an active Is much less likely experiencing pain than the one That's kind of just laying there And not moving around as much might still be nursing?

00:28:16: The head is up ears are up.

00:28:19: It still isn't feeling the same as that calf.

00:28:21: That's running around and kind of playing an active right?

00:28:25: Yeah,

00:28:26: play is a sort of extra behavior Right.

00:28:28: it's not essential for life or survival.

00:28:31: It's something you only do As a calf.

00:28:33: You know.

00:28:33: it's something when you feel good And so if there's anything wrong with you...you're NOT playing.

00:28:38: So yeah..it's fun.

00:28:41: but also You're right, it's a strong indicator that those calves feel lot better than without the NSAID.

00:28:49: And I guess the other one on that note is there's also some evidence that giving an anti-inflammatory drug after an assisted calving has some benefits in terms of weight gain early on, both in dairy and beef.

00:29:00: Essentially what this probably means are those calves are nursing more right?

00:29:03: It helps them feel good to get up and nurse which translates into better growth as a sign for bigger.

00:29:10: Well even especially during their early days with initial weight gain Again, gives that calf kind of a head start into its life.

00:29:19: That it's cumulative yet something where when you started to deficit then it's always hard to overcome them for sure.

00:29:26: You've mentioned a few times here and I would say this may be well It's part of the calving thing But maybe even a bit more of a passion for you is the topic about Colostrum, which I would wholly agree with you.

00:29:38: This is probably one of the more most critical things when we talk about calf care.

00:29:42: Yeah It's funny because when i first started doing research on colostrum people thought it was crazy.

00:29:46: Colostrom and beef calves right?

00:29:47: Because they're like well colostrome as a dairy problem Right.

00:29:50: Like in beef cattle The cow takes care of it And I would agree that's the hope right.

00:29:54: ideally A beef cow is going to take care Of it On their own but sometimes They don't.

00:29:58: and When We've looked at You know We've Actually gone out There In blood Caves Taken Blood Samples From Cavs On Privately Owned You know, commercial and purebred ranches across Alberta.

00:30:07: And found you know twenty five thirty percent of calves didn't get enough colostrums.

00:30:11: so

00:30:12: it is much higher than what a person would have thought right?

00:30:14: Totally

00:30:15: yeah.

00:30:15: people were like your crazy.

00:30:16: we don't need to look at this.

00:30:17: uh okay well let me go and prove it!

00:30:20: You know...and there's a fair number of calves that aren't getting what they want them to get.

00:30:24: So in dairy when you assist the calf for its birth You're going to just then plug it into whatever colostrum protocol you have, probably right?

00:30:34: Because most areas should have a good Colostrum Protocol already.

00:30:37: So that's relatively easy.

00:30:39: but for beef its more complicated because ideally the cow is gonna take care of them and we are not gunna help it.

00:30:44: But We do know being an assisted calving Is A big risk factor For Not Getting Up In Nursing quickly, which is quickness in getting your colostrum as one of the biggest things that drives whether you absorb enough of the maternal antibodies.

00:30:59: Right?

00:31:00: So when you put together that suckle reflex that we mentioned earlier with weather they were assisted calving.

00:31:05: We get a pretty good sense of whether or not that calf is going to need help.

00:31:08: so if there an assisted caling and they have a weak suckle reflux There's.

00:31:12: what's the number?

00:31:13: it's like ninety five to ninety eight percent chance That They're Not Going To Get Up And Set Colostrum In The First Four Hours.

00:31:19: If you pull them and they have a weak suckle reflex, You're going to help get their colostrum.

00:31:32: I don't like fifty-fifty odds.

00:31:40: Well, and I

00:31:57: think back in my practice days if... If i was doing a calving or whether it was uh a pole.

00:32:03: Whether It Was A Sea Section One of the things that always did is I actually milked The animal out after That!

00:32:08: I Did not let them bottle feed..I did tube Them but I Always made sure they got colostrum before They left just because they came In.

00:32:16: And usually probably more significant issues as far as time, as for his stress on that animal.

00:32:23: That I just wanted to make sure it got as good a start As i possibly could.

00:32:27: producers already paid me money To help get that calf out and I wanted to Make sure that he had something at the end of The day that you can sell in the fall.

00:32:35: then always thought classroom was kind Of key thing.

00:32:37: Yeah, I wish she'd been mentoring me when i was a new grad.

00:32:45: That would have been helpful!

00:33:06: years, it's gone from twelve to eight and then six.

00:33:11: And now four.

00:33:11: I think maybe some of that is a result.

00:33:17: Yeah, and the

00:33:24: more I've done this research.

00:33:25: The more...I think timing is the number one component of this picture right?

00:33:30: And so it's true you have twenty-four hours where the calf continues to absorb the antibodies that are in that colostrum.

00:33:36: but what we now know sort of as you said based on more recent research Is that within the first four to six hours That's where the efficiency of absorption or the ability To absorb those antibodies is the highest and then It starts dropping off.

00:33:53: In the real world, if you say four hours by the time you get a cow in the chute and you got up on nursing it's probably going to be six hours.

00:34:02: So that is why I am like... If they have been nursed for four hours then you do something And hopefully that calf has nursed all its colostrums just based upon practical realities of life.

00:34:12: essentially Right?

00:34:14: Exactly right!

00:34:15: It always when i give recommendations again will trim my time because the reality on the farm is going to be different.

00:34:24: So give a little bit tighter window, even though there might still benefit later that you're probably gonna stretch it regardless.

00:34:32: so...

00:34:32: Yeah and sort of yeah if they haven't nursed by four hours.

00:34:35: That's trigger to do something as soon as you can right?

00:34:41: The nuance there And I guess the questions people always say okay then what do i do?

00:34:48: Based on the research that we've done, my recommendation is to get a liter and half of colostrum into those calves at like four hour point.

00:34:58: Ideally bottle feeding.

00:34:59: so we did compare bottle versus tube And calves are bottle fed do nurse more quickly as follow up from that initial feeding.

00:35:07: So bottle feeding is better.

00:35:10: Ideally Colostrum the dam itself or from another cow in the herd.

00:35:15: But like you said, if it's two o'clock in the morning and the producers got to drive two hours home from the clinic and all of that tube feeding is better than waiting.

00:35:23: Yes.

00:35:23: You know bottles best but too tubing Is Better Than Waiting?

00:35:27: It sort Of The Way That I always say that And i used To Always Make My Vet Students Try And Bottle Feed In New Born Calf Or Even Like An Older Dumb Calf Because It Takes A Fair Amount Of Patients Yes.

00:35:38: And so, yes bottle feeding is ideal but there's just again the practical realities that sometimes you're better off getting in there and tubing Just because you have other things You need to be doing or you know?

00:35:49: It's late at night and people need sleep and all of that right.

00:35:52: So it's not the tubing as bad.

00:35:56: Yeah they do better if you can bottle feed them.

00:35:59: Then another part.

00:36:00: when we did that Because some calves won't finish a bottle And so we found that the calves that rejected the bottle and had to get tube-fed, they were the slowest to nurse.

00:36:11: So that too me is also one of these indicators.

00:36:13: if I try and bottle feed a calf it's just really dulled.

00:36:17: won't even think about nursing that bottle.

00:36:19: That's a calf i want keep an eye on because its got...its really compromised at this point right?

00:36:25: Right!

00:36:25: So yes im going to tube but Im probably gonna come back in few hours or within eight hour.

00:36:30: make sure thats getting another feeding.

00:36:34: You mentioned the one and a half liters.

00:36:35: I assume that is for beef, do you have different recommendations?

00:36:40: Yeah,

00:36:43: and I think with the dairy calves if i put my dairy hat back on which has been a while.

00:36:49: You know?

00:36:50: They're generally bigger right like we're generally dealing with the bigger Holstein breeds.

00:36:53: And so you know... My understanding is that If your bottle feeding..you probably want to give them at least two liters ..If your tube feeding ...You can actually feed them more!

00:37:06: One of the challenges when you bottle feed, what happens is the anatomy of the rumen kind of changes.

00:37:13: Right?

00:37:13: So with a bottle feed that suckling action closes a groove in the room and then it goes straight from the esophagus into the true stomach and bypasses the rumin.

00:37:22: so When you bottle-feed You can actually get away With a little lower volumes because It's going Straight to The True Stike where its gonna clot And the antibodies are Gonna get subsequently get absorbed on all Of That Tubing them, it goes more into the rumin and so that's where those larger volumes will then kind of overflow from the rumen.

00:37:41: And still get in to that true stomach right?

00:37:43: So there has been some nice research on that out at Minnesota That yeah if you're tube feeding You may want to be up in that like four liter type volume of colostrum.

00:37:52: I've seen even At some conferences Where they talk about three liters and doing two feedings Of Colostrum you know, six hours.

00:38:02: Now I think some of that comes down to the quality of colostrum when we look at the concentration

00:38:20: Different products.

00:38:21: So when we've measured colostrum, We had I don't know several hundred Colostrum samples from beef cattle across Alberta on average a hundred and fifty grams per liter of IgG Which is essentially that important.

00:38:34: those antibodies come from the cow versus.

00:38:38: We did a similar study in Alberta again of dairy cattle, and I think it was sixty seven.

00:38:43: Was the average grams per liter?

00:38:45: So not even in the same ballpark.

00:38:47: That's why you have to feed those dairy calves both because of the body weight But also because what your feeding them is usually much more dilute.

00:38:54: And so you have two give him or so they sort of that.

00:38:57: The goal is to get usually we say two to three hundred grams Of total like up the mass of IgG right which is, you know.

00:39:05: then it depends on how concentrated the colostrum is.

00:39:09: On the volume that you need to feed.

00:39:10: so its sort of- It IS complicated right?

00:39:12: Its sorta like when people say How much should you feed?

00:39:13: well it depends...it depends what your feeding.

00:39:17: Right and if you have good quality beef Colostrum You can get away with feeding less.

00:39:22: Versus If you have more dilute dairy Colostrom Your gonna have to feed more To get same amount Of those Ate

00:39:27: body.

00:39:28: And I just think it's important for producers to be aware because they may see some of those different recommendations and not recognize that there are differences between those dairy-and-beef recommendations as a result.

00:39:39: Yeah, and I think the other thing that we don't often necessarily... You know?

00:39:42: The other two components to that is timing.

00:39:46: So the sooner you're there, you can get away with less because they are absorbing more of what you feed them.

00:39:53: If it's like when this calf was born It has been over a night ...you'll probably want to up the volume little bit Because their going absorb less of what your feed.

00:40:02: That why at about two-to three hundred you might be on an upper end if you think they're not going to absorb it all.

00:40:09: And then the other part is the body weight, right?

00:40:11: Because we are really meaning for...you know..the blood concentration which is directly related to size of a calf.

00:40:18: so smaller calves obviously have got little tiny jersey calf or little Angus twin.

00:40:22: You aren't gonna two feet at four liters because that's too much.

00:40:26: But If your've got gigantic semi-calf or gigantic Holstein Then yeah!

00:40:31: Your'e gunna up that volume because A They can take more and B they need more because their bigger, right?

00:40:37: So it's not a like.

00:40:38: I know we wanted to still things down until

00:40:40: yes

00:40:42: and there are some rules of thumb but its little bit complicated.

00:40:45: Because theres all these yeah depends type thing.

00:40:48: just

00:40:49: briefly maybe touch on you when talk about colostrum.

00:40:53: sometimes that damn may have much.

00:40:55: then what do?

00:40:57: maybe she died or whatever, but we need to get colostrum into that calf.

00:41:02: What are some other options for us to use?

00:41:04: Yeah yeah.

00:41:05: so ideally we have some Colostrum in our freezer from you know one of our own cows especially if you have a good an older cow who has a high volume.

00:41:13: Ideally you can save some of her Colostrim in a Ziploc bag that's laid flat in the freezer defrosts a lot quicker than something in a bottle right!

00:41:22: So yes yeah so the preferable.

00:41:27: And in freezing that, usually we talk about probably a twelve month kind of best before without?

00:41:34: Yeah they stay twelve months.

00:41:35: I guess my sort of practical twist on that is within a calving season.

00:41:40: yeah it's probably

00:41:41: better way to do this.

00:41:42: right if you think was last year you know, just because it was maybe... It's not going to suddenly explode at thirteen months right?

00:41:49: So if its from last year and it doesn't look weird or whatever.

00:41:54: When we thought that looks okay I probably wouldn't throw out but i wouldnt keep for a third calving season

00:42:00: essentially.

00:42:01: But yeah If your talking dairy then twelve month is sort of on your annual cycle And the other thing is freezing it you know, on the milkhouse...the warm milk house floor for multiple hours.

00:42:12: Again they've done some work in Minnesota.

00:42:14: yeah it's like after two hours that bacterial growth is through the roof.

00:42:18: so you want to get right?

00:42:19: In the freezer quickly.

00:42:20: and then of course people always ask about the colostrum products- The supplement products I think are a really important tool.

00:42:27: They're not as good as what your own cows are going make for your calves but there are tools that you need sometimes when..you know Like You said A cow has

00:42:34: dead

00:42:35: You've got twins, whatever it is where you don't have any option.

00:42:40: It can sit on a shelf for long time.

00:42:41: Its there its quick and ready at two o'clock in the morning.

00:42:45: so it's an important tool And I think that just sort of Asterix On That Is having a good product right because not all products are created equal.

00:42:54: um...you want something thats made actually from colostrum but not blood cause some other products are actually just made from slaughterhouse blood.

00:43:01: The cabs don't absorb those antibodies as well.

00:43:04: So definitely you want a good product because some of them aren't worth the bag they come in, but definitely a critical tool to have your toolbox during calving season.

00:43:11: And maybe one quick comment on, I know i did have some of my producers that would go to One Of The Dairies and buy Some Colostrum To Have On Hand.

00:43:20: Give us your thoughts on That!

00:43:21: Yes...and then get it Get.

00:43:23: people are trying do the right thing.

00:43:25: But dairy colostrum like I said earlier is just not even in the same ballpark as what we want for our beef cattle.

00:43:31: Bringing Colostrom Even if you're a dairy farm bringing colostrom from another dairy brings risk, right?

00:43:37: You're potentially bringing in diseases that you didn't have on your farm.

00:43:41: And so that biosecurity risk is just not worth it.

00:43:44: and then on the beef side no its' just not what your beef calves need.

00:43:48: So yes It's a double whammy.

00:43:50: Yeah I'm considering we have multiple other options That are safer and probably do better job.

00:43:56: You know, it's something where definitely I've moved way away from that over the years.

00:44:01: But but yeah no definitely something to consider.

00:44:04: Yeah and i think the benchmarking numbers across Canada this is Something That Is The Numbers Are Dropping?

00:44:09: The Eastern provinces do This More Than The Western Provinces Probably Just Because Of The Number of Dairy Farms Around Them.

00:44:15: But Those Numbers are Dropping.

00:44:17: So Definitely A Good Word Is Getting Out There Not To Do This.

00:44:21: Yeah,

00:44:23: yeah.

00:44:23: So we've talked about kind of you know get them out Get the breathing get them up Get them fed.

00:44:30: What are some of the other considerations?

00:44:33: We need to think about with some of these calves You know from a dystocia

00:44:37: Yeah, so some of the other things I think i mentioned it off-the-top a little bit is you know these calves are at higher risk of getting chilled right.

00:44:44: So there are calf sickles as I like to call them but yeah...so if their temperature or their rectal temperatures below below thirty seven degrees that's ninety eight point six.

00:44:53: If your using an American thermometer and always try and remind people to have two separate thermometers, one for their newborns.

00:45:02: And one for they're sick calves because you don't want them using the same thermometer, same as... You know I'm using this tube?

00:45:09: Yeah yeah so you have a special kit just for your newborns.

00:45:13: that's nice and clean.

00:45:14: So those calves are chilled by putting in a hot box or clean clean hot box, that's the tricky part sometimes.

00:45:21: Or even just bringing them into a warm barn or a shop that has got heated floor... People go to all sorts of measures in terms like truck cabs and house bathrooms.

00:45:33: if you have a supportive family wherever you bring those calves up because they don't have body fat to keep themselves warm for very long.

00:45:43: so once they get chilled they can go downhill really quickly.

00:45:46: And so yeah, keeping them warm is a big consideration and one of the best ways to warm them up from the inside has some warm colostrums.

00:45:54: So I know I harp on claustroma lot but it has many benefits not just the antibodies But also The energy the warmth vitamins and minerals all the good things that are in there.

00:46:04: Um, so you know tubing then with some warm Colostrum or bottle feeding them some warm claustrum?

00:46:08: Then putting them in a warm place You kind of can can speed up that process by heating them up.

00:46:13: for me inside as well

00:46:15: It's amazing the response that you see from just even sticking them in a hot box for a short period of time.

00:46:22: You've got a calf, that's flat out to now a calf.

00:46:25: That's kind of standing up and ready-to-go nurse that cow that chilling can have a big impact on it For sure

00:46:32: And it affects their absorption of those antibodies as well.

00:46:35: I keep going back to classroom.

00:46:36: but yeah everything right?

00:46:38: Well its at vital start for that.

00:46:41: animals life

00:46:42: Yeah.

00:46:42: And so if they're cold, the blood flow to their guts gets reduced right?

00:46:47: Because of the flood flow is just trying keep them alive and... So then they don't have as good a blood flow for the gut and then they absorb those antibodies.

00:46:53: It's it get in number different ways.

00:46:55: We talked little bit about this with Jen but you know I guess mothering up so-to speak.

00:47:01: You know obviously there are maternal factors that can affect mom and calf bond But also factors on the calf side.

00:47:09: You know, I guess part of that is what we already discussed.

00:47:13: How can we kind do the best?

00:47:16: And they think we've already discussed a lot of those things.

00:47:18: but how to make that mothering aspect take place especially in these difficult calvings

00:47:26: Yeah!

00:47:27: Some of it's just basic management and having a space for special needs pairs right as sort As much as little is putting them in a pen together or a stall, together.

00:47:39: In a barn will allow that opportunity for them to come together because they might feel both A Little bit painful and They just need a little help focusing on each other right.

00:47:49: so Putting Them Together Whether That's in a stall whether?

00:47:57: it's especially if you have, say all black cattle.

00:48:00: It can be hard to keep track of everybody although I'm always amazed at producer's ability to recall oh yeah heifer number three sixty two.

00:48:09: she did this and like they had an amazing memory.

00:48:11: but yes when It gets hard to pay attention to everything, right?

00:48:16: So being able put them somewhere where they have a little bit more focus on each other.

00:48:21: There's less interference there is less chaos of things going on.

00:48:24: that can really help.

00:48:25: We do some research happening at the University of Calgary and theres just student looking at mis-mothering in particular because theres not A lot.

00:48:32: science helps us make decisions around this.

00:48:34: but like you said a calf isn't an active part of bonding.

00:48:37: its'nt about the cow wanting take care of the calf.

00:48:41: The calf also has to be active.

00:48:43: using an anti-inflammatory drug, doing some of these other things to make that calf more active will help with

00:48:54: Right.

00:48:54: Before we go on with this, you mentioned something just a few minutes ago that I wanted to go back.

00:49:12: What should we have in our calf box for these newborn calves, uh...in general to be prepared?

00:49:18: You know I guess on the beef side of things especially but even on the dairy.

00:49:21: what do we need in that toolbox for these new born calves.

00:49:24: Well

00:49:25: yeah- That's a great question and most places where they've worked with you know They have a literal toolbox.

00:49:29: so probably gonna want two separate kits, right?

00:49:32: One is for that sort of immediate after the calf is born.

00:49:36: So that's gonna have our squirt bottle with some water in it to try and you know, squirt them into ear get them breathing.

00:49:42: maybe a pen or hemostatic like uh...some sort of tool to poke them in the nose.

00:49:47: probably some towels To rub them.

00:49:50: Get them rubbing them vigorously With And then also either an LMA The laryngeal mask airway Or the macula mask respirator-the calf pump having those, because if you have to go looking for that and it's covered in dusts.

00:50:02: You're not going to have a fast enough break.

00:50:05: So we want to have that in your kit there and ready so that sort of the immediate postnatal resuscitation kit that you might wanna have.

00:50:12: And then In terms of like next steps For new born calf Then were looking at The thermometer Like I just said Having a clean neonatal only thermometer Making sure That you have bottles and tubes Again, for the neonate that you're not using your scouring calf feeder to feed colostrum.

00:50:32: Those should be two separate things and they should be clearly marked in kept separate also having things like iodine or navel dip if you've got calves That are going through a barn Or in a sort of potentially contaminated area.

00:50:43: You probably want some sort of naval dip Also depending on where you're based.

00:50:48: If you need To be giving selenium vitamin E one Of those injections early On I'm gonna wanna have that In that sort of called Neonatal Kit as well.

00:50:57: And probably also you're going to have your tagger and stuff too, right?

00:50:59: Cause you want to get those calves tagged pretty quick.

00:51:02: so who's off the bat?

00:51:03: I think that kind of covers it.

00:51:05: The key thing here is just being prepared As much as you can because like you said when you need things often times You need them now not twenty minutes later or the next break When you come back To look at that animal.

00:51:16: So its nice having It all together in one place

00:51:19: Yeah!

00:51:19: And i think with a hundred percent Being Prepared and Having A Plan not only I think can make or break the difference of a good calving season, it also makes it less stressful.

00:51:34: The stress comes from running around trying to figure out what do and where this stuff is versus especially when you get a crew who's pretty organized that knows their doing.

00:51:44: they're trained but don't have to worry about decision making.

00:51:50: They're trained to have the good decision support, right?

00:51:55: And they can just act instead of worrying about what's the great thing to do and all that.

00:51:59: I think that could really reduce the stress of these situations.

00:52:02: so it can be pretty stressful!

00:52:03: Right?!

00:52:03: It...they are literally life-and-death situation sometimes.

00:52:07: So preparation ahead of time whether you know having a training day before calving season or regular check in during your herd health visits on a dairy talking can make those literal life or death situations less stressful for everybody, right?

00:52:24: And increase the probability of it turning out well.

00:52:27: Exactly when you've got a plan in place and you follow that whole intent is to have more positive outcome.

00:52:33: so if we don't have a plan I guess as one other downsides.

00:52:39: but thats where things start going awry.

00:52:41: We talked a bit about differences between beef and dairy, but are there any kind of general differences when we talk about difficult calving considerations that are different?

00:52:50: When we talk both dairy versus beef.

00:52:53: Yeah!

00:52:54: And this is something I was reflecting on in preparation for the podcast... ...and you know i went to Guelph for school so it's mostly dairy training.

00:53:04: Yes, and then I came out west and worked in practice in southern Alberta And that was mostly beef.

00:53:10: by doing those sort of living in those two very different worlds You know what?

00:53:14: I came to realize often the priorities are quite different especially when you're In these situations in calving, right?

00:53:21: And the reality is that in dairy, the cow has priority.

00:53:25: She's going to be one who's making milk and she'll become a productive member of her herd versus...

00:53:31: Yeah!

00:53:31: She

00:53:34: uses this source of income,

00:53:38: right?!

00:53:38: Yes!!

00:53:38: In beef, the calf is what we are aiming for at the end.... That's the

00:53:42: product!!!

00:53:44: it's the harsh reality that sometimes you do have to make decisions about, is it The Cow or Is It The Calf?

00:53:50: That I'm going to save in this situation.

00:53:51: And ideal world they both survive.

00:53:54: but these are tough scenarios Sometimes and especially when your a new grad who hasn't necessarily built up long-term relationships with Your clients like that can be really tough and i think its an important conversation To remember to Have right of.

00:54:07: Like You know Im thinking we gotta Save The Cow here But Are U Okay With That?

00:54:12: Because We Might Lose The Caff.

00:54:13: you know, spending a moment to say that to a client.

00:54:16: You maybe when your new grad might not have the nerve do it but or even think about that...you may have your own assumptions right?

00:54:24: And I think its just something important for those conversations.

00:54:28: and remember there are different priorities for clients in different scenarios.

00:54:33: all of these things and then we gotta talk about them.

00:54:35: Yes again hopefully this is where were not having make choice between the dam or calf.

00:54:42: there are those situations.

00:54:43: So

00:54:44: yeah, it's important

00:54:45: to recognize the differences right?

00:54:46: Yeah.

00:54:47: Yeah.

00:54:49: Ideally everyone makes it but sometimes its an either or you're going lose them both and that is just a sad reality of it.

00:54:57: Now we've talked about kind of immediate consequences for difficult calving And some things like looking at what we can do kind of mitigate some of those impacts.

00:55:09: I guess you talked about that, those impacts of dystocia... You know we did talk about culling and other factors too That actually resulted in an economic impact for the producer?

00:55:20: I realize it's maybe not a black-and-white answer but tell me your thoughts on the retention.

00:55:26: It's easy for me to say this because I don't have cows, but i would say Don't keep them.

00:55:30: Right?

00:55:30: That sort of right it's harsh and i know people Have various reasons For keeping heifers that they like for whatever reason.

00:55:37: yes all of that But i think in terms Of long-term improvement of your herd making Your life easier Making calving season smoother having a more productive operation.

00:55:48: You Know its pretty simple To Me is any heifer you Keep to me ideally has A clean record And I also would be any of the cows or heifers who were assisted.

00:55:59: Jen probably mentioned this during hers, you know if they don't wean a calf They're going to be near the top on my culling list right?

00:56:06: So i've got my opens i've Got my nasty ones and then i've gotten my cows Who didn't um ween a calf.

00:56:12: those are Cows that i'm gonna want to call

00:56:15: so maybe A bit more black and white than what i than What i kind Of said it would Be all albeit into To what she Said.

00:56:23: i mean It's easy for us to say say this on our side of the fence.

00:56:28: On the producer's side, I realize sometimes they've invested a significant amount time or money into some these animals.

00:56:36: but to your point though that long-term impacts in herd genetics is it worth?

00:56:44: You can only make those culling decisions if you have records to help you.

00:56:48: Right?

00:56:48: So writing stuff down, I know calving season is busy and nobody wants more things to do.

00:56:54: but if you want to be able to improve your herd and make those informed decisions... You need to have records!

00:57:00: You need usable records so that you can write stuff down or get them put into a computer in order for you to analyze it.

00:57:08: You also don't believe keeping records for no good reason, because that is a waste of time.

00:57:19: But yes... Keeping the right records in a way you can use them to make decisions and your operation better or life better.

00:57:28: I think it's really critical Because we were just talking about if you don't have the record to back out Before

00:57:34: making this decision on the wrong animal.

00:57:37: You missed remembering who had the problem.

00:57:39: Yeah, exactly.

00:57:40: And I guess so.

00:57:41: the other point and we've kind of talked about it already but i think maybe a good point to land on is sort of calving is difficult.

00:57:48: A lot of decisions have to be made in the moment.

00:57:51: The cliche of prevention as worth a pound of cure sort of planning ahead Trying to move the needle In terms of their management practices and your herd genetics and all that To prevent this from being a problem and then having a good plan in place for when it does happen can really help improve the success.

00:58:09: And make things easier, right?

00:58:11: Make producers' lives simpler by having all this stuff either preventing it or having a plan in-place from what has happened.

00:58:18: Right!

00:58:19: You know you've done a great job of addressing those key issues some important thing that we incorporate into our farm during calving season and whether that's on the beef side where it's happening during, you know a short season or Whether it's on a dairy Where?

00:58:35: You know we're there calving throughout The year.

00:58:37: lot of the same principles apply.

00:58:39: There are some differences but being prepared And being able to get that calf up in and going.

00:58:45: You know Get them out get them breathing get them up get them fed and your last point write It down I think those are all important messages.

00:58:55: There's no doubt that difficult calving or dystocia will have a negative impact on the animals involved, even your herd and profits.

00:59:06: But there are steps we can take to try and minimize as much of it as possible of a plan we have in place, but the better odds are getting that calf to the weaning which is you know as well.

00:59:21: let's not forget about the dam.

00:59:22: I mean we focused on the calf here today like i said it something where same can be said for both.

00:59:32: Claire, is there anything else that you'd like to add before we finish the episode?

00:59:36: No.

00:59:36: I think we talked a lot longer than expected us too but... That's typical for you and me in chat.

00:59:43: This was such an important issue as it mentioned off-the-top near and dear my heart so i appreciate your opportunity.

00:59:52: Well, thank you for joining with us today and sharing your knowledge.

00:59:56: You know I think of all the research that you in on the team at Calgary have done over the years That iIthink a really advanced our knowledge On The Beef side Of Things Especially.

01:00:05: So Thank You Again For Being Here Today.

01:00:09: Um...i do want to thank Our Listener as well!

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